POLYAMORY & AHIMSA: Talk with Lovers' Lovers by Sasha Lessin, Ph.D.
Do you always, before you connect with someone with whom you're attracted, talk with that person's lovers?
I attended the Network for a New Culture's two week August community meeting in the mountains of Oregon and found myself in the middle of an earnest debate that, bottom line, concerned alternate ways of connecting with new lovers.
Model 1: RESPECT EXISTING RELATIONSHIPS BEFORE YOU CONNECT
On one side of the debate, my wife Janet and I advocate complete
candor with the significant others of our would-be-lovers–before we
connect sexually with these prospects. Before we even tell anyone
either of us is attracted to someone, Janet and I speak privately
about whether to communicate our attraction to the objects of desire
one or both of us has. If both Janet and I agree to go ahead, we ask
the person(s) if they're interested in getting to know and perhaps
become friends and then lovers with us.
If our prospective lovers say, "Yes, let's explore going deeper with
each other," we ask to speak with each of their significant others
before we and the prospectives engage sexually. If, when we
communicate with our prospective lovers' lovers, these significant
others say. Okay," we proceed to get to know each other with the
intention of assessing whether to become more intimate.
If the significant others of our prospective lovers say, "Wait till
we too get to know you and Janet," we honor this. If they
say, "Wonderful, we fully support you connecting." we proceed to
develop the friendship that can lead to poly loving.
If, however, the significant others of our prospective lovers
indicate that it would create distress for them which they wish to
avoid, we keep our relating to the would-be-prospectives on the level
of friendship and share no sexuality. We choose to create no pain
for others; it hurts us to distress others, so we refrain from sex
with their lovers.
Model 2: FOLLOW YOUR BLISS SPONTANEOUSLY & LIVE WITH CONSEQUENCES
On the other hand in the debate we had at the conference, some polys
took the position that each person was autonomous and needn't consult
anyone–wife, lover or otherwise, nor need their perspectives consult
anyone before engaging in sex. If their prospective lovers' lovers
get uptight over it, too bad, that's life and maybe pain's what the
prospective's lovers need to grow–if they even have a candor
commitment. This sounds a bit like polyfuckery rather than ethical
polyamory the way Janet and I practice it.
We advocate ahimsa–harmlessness–candor, transparency. We believe in
truth, disclosure and kindness.
How do you practice poly? How do you manage communication with the
significant others of your prospective others? On this site and at
the World Polyamory Harbin Hot Springs (CA) Conference Oct 5-7, we
continue this debate in our panel discussion, How We Do Poly. Let us
know your perspective.
www.schooloftantra.net/worldp...nces/Ha
rbinHotSprings2007/2007_harbin_hot_springs_presentations.html
Do you always, before you connect with someone with whom you're attracted, talk with that person's lovers?
I attended the Network for a New Culture's two week August community meeting in the mountains of Oregon and found myself in the middle of an earnest debate that, bottom line, concerned alternate ways of connecting with new lovers.
Model 1: RESPECT EXISTING RELATIONSHIPS BEFORE YOU CONNECT
On one side of the debate, my wife Janet and I advocate complete
candor with the significant others of our would-be-lovers–before we
connect sexually with these prospects. Before we even tell anyone
either of us is attracted to someone, Janet and I speak privately
about whether to communicate our attraction to the objects of desire
one or both of us has. If both Janet and I agree to go ahead, we ask
the person(s) if they're interested in getting to know and perhaps
become friends and then lovers with us.
If our prospective lovers say, "Yes, let's explore going deeper with
each other," we ask to speak with each of their significant others
before we and the prospectives engage sexually. If, when we
communicate with our prospective lovers' lovers, these significant
others say. Okay," we proceed to get to know each other with the
intention of assessing whether to become more intimate.
If the significant others of our prospective lovers say, "Wait till
we too get to know you and Janet," we honor this. If they
say, "Wonderful, we fully support you connecting." we proceed to
develop the friendship that can lead to poly loving.
If, however, the significant others of our prospective lovers
indicate that it would create distress for them which they wish to
avoid, we keep our relating to the would-be-prospectives on the level
of friendship and share no sexuality. We choose to create no pain
for others; it hurts us to distress others, so we refrain from sex
with their lovers.
Model 2: FOLLOW YOUR BLISS SPONTANEOUSLY & LIVE WITH CONSEQUENCES
On the other hand in the debate we had at the conference, some polys
took the position that each person was autonomous and needn't consult
anyone–wife, lover or otherwise, nor need their perspectives consult
anyone before engaging in sex. If their prospective lovers' lovers
get uptight over it, too bad, that's life and maybe pain's what the
prospective's lovers need to grow–if they even have a candor
commitment. This sounds a bit like polyfuckery rather than ethical
polyamory the way Janet and I practice it.
We advocate ahimsa–harmlessness–candor, transparency. We believe in
truth, disclosure and kindness.
How do you practice poly? How do you manage communication with the
significant others of your prospective others? On this site and at
the World Polyamory Harbin Hot Springs (CA) Conference Oct 5-7, we
continue this debate in our panel discussion, How We Do Poly. Let us
know your perspective.
www.schooloftantra.net/worldp...nces/Ha
rbinHotSprings2007/2007_harbin_hot_springs_presentations.html
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Honolulu
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Re: POLYAMORY & AHIMSA: Talk with Lovers' Lovers by Sasha Lessin, Ph.D.
Fri, August 31, 2007 - 3:16 PMThe model you set out is a good ideal, but not always practical. My wife and I attend Ren Faires at some distance from our home, and not always together because of scheduling issues. Most of the Poly connections either one of us have made have been through the Ren Faires. The modification to your model that we use is that we 1) inquire of prospective interests what their status is, with a frank discussion of poly and a stated intent to cause no harm to their relationships, 2) trust in the answer we receive (presuming the person seems trustworthy, or we wouldn't be attracted anyway), 3) inform our partner as soon as practicable 4) procede as seems appropriate in the context of all above. We are committed to candor between ourselves and also to candor with any committed relationships our prospective interests might be in. We simply allow for 'the moment' to happen if we are away from each other without spoiling it.
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Re: POLYAMORY & AHIMSA: Talk with Lovers' Lovers by Sasha Lessin, Ph.D.
Sun, September 2, 2007 - 1:54 PMMy lovers and I practice something inbetween the two. Unless my interactions have the potential to develope into something long term, my lovers are not particularly interested in knowing about them. I go to a lot of ren faires as well (more accurately, SCA events), and casual hookups are common there. Asking permission before each one is impractical. I guess a better way of looking at it is that I have blanket permission for such things, and my lovers trust my judgement.
Otherwise, I insist on meeting my lovers' lovers. They're a part of the relationship, and there is great potential for friendship, even if only based upon the common interest in a person. I often find myself liking them very much and wishing to persue relationships with them. It makes sense when you think about it, as if a potential lover is interested in you, you probably have a bit in common with their current lovers.
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Re: POLYAMORY & AHIMSA: Talk with Lovers' Lovers by Sasha Lessin, Ph.D.
Sat, September 22, 2007 - 4:36 PMGreat thread. The titles of the models imply that unless you choose option #1 that you are disrespecting existing relationships before connecting, which may be but is not always the case. For example, my partner and I have an agreement that we will talk over new involvements with the other but do not need to ask permission or talk with the new people, just keep communication open and invite the others' influence. Doesn't mean this way is better or worse, it's just our agreement and it seems to be working well.
So, say new person X wants to be involved with me and vice versa. I share with new person X about my partner and the agreement her and I have. I then talk with my partner and all is well. If new person X insists on talking to my partner in my eyes that is more about what new person X needs to feel comfortable and is not an act of showing me or my partner respect one way or another. It's fine if new person X needs that to feel OK, my partner and I would probably be willing to accomdate it just fine, but it would feel strange and perhaps even disrespectful if new person X was unable to recognize that it was more about their needs than mine or my partners'. Potentially disrespectful in the sense that it communicates a lack of trust in me and my partners' ability to clearly and effectively communicate our own needs, boundaries, etc. and may potentially imply that new person X's way is somehow more appropriate.
I am also in the truth, disclosure, and kindness camp. And there are other ways to embody these values than the particular way in which you are choosing to embody them. Poly-polyamory.
-Daniel
